Christian BoyLove Forum #66785
Thank you for writing such a good post in so little time. I'm sorry for calling you up by name in the name of the above post, but I was recently interested by the subject and thought you might be happy to discuss it :)
I must admit I am a bit torn about the case of homosexuality. When it comes to it as an attraction, it is of course not sinful, however celibate loving relationships... I don't know much.
But when it comes to sexual acts between men (or women), I'm pretty sure they are sinful. So, since our opinions on that are different, I think it would be nice to argue about that a little to keep the forum going :)
Things I found unclear
In the part about "Sodomy and homosexuality (...) in the community 3000 years ago", are we talking about sex in loving relationships or forced abuse of another person (such as abusing power, or position, or someone's slavery)? I'm asking because sex I think in a loving gay relationship would be different than "manufacturing a false vagina".
" the act of homosexuality can be pardoned in christ"
Since Jesus came and died for our sins, we can be pardoned in Christ for the sins we have commited and cleansed from the evilness (out-of-sync-ness) that comes with them. But if something is a sin, repeatedly doing it and asking forgiveness WITHOUT wanting and trying not to commit the same sin again is sinful (as hell). Therefore the fact, that "the act of homosexuality can be pardoned in christ" does not provide reason for it not to be sinful.
"one can be actively homosexual and just so long as he maintains the awareness of the truth exactly how babies are made"
I don't get the part about maintaining awareness of the truth exactly how babies are made.
Infidelty with the peace in harmony with God is not just being illogical - it's being illogical to His Truth. So, if I say: 'I kill people, but I know that's not how babies are made and I accept the fact, that this is not what I am trying to do", then I am not being illogical - I know what I'm doing. But what I'm doing is sinful. How can taking the lives of other people, whom God loves very much, be worth some money or an emotional high? It certainly isn't right by His logic.
If the act of sodomy is sinful, biological knowledge about how babies are made doesn't change a thing about its sinfulness.
Catholic Church's teachings (which i very much support)
Sex in marriage (talking about hetero here) is wonderful. The thing is that sex is the fulfillment of the sacrament of marriage. When someone is being baptized, is consuming the Blood and Body of Christ, is confessing his/her sins - those are some of the other sacraments - God is coming down from the heavens (reinforcing His presence in a specific place/person) and He is with the people fulfilling the sacrament. It is usually a presence so strong, that it can be felt. When we are doing one of the above (sex, baptism, Blood and Body of Christ, confession etc.) God comes OH SO CLOSE to us. Those are the most sacred things in life. When you are handing out food to the poor, that's great! When you are sitting alone at home and praying to God - that's great! But when you are having fulfilling sex in a loving marriage open for the gift of life - that's beyond awesome (for your relationship with God). When you are having sex with your wife, God himself is coming to you both, living the act together with both of you.
This is so much more than a massage.
And that's why homosexual acts are wrong - they are infidelty with God's harmony in sex. A pair initiating an act of homosexual sex is doing pretty much the same things that hetero couples do during sex, they get the same bodily feelings - but that's act is not what God wanted sex to be. It simply cannot have the depth that was intended. Homosexual acts "are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved." (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2357)
That's the Catholic Church for you. I don't know if you are Catholic (propably not if you think homosexual acts are ok). So to (hopefully) prove the sinfulness of homosexual acts I will use the Bible:
9Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
(1 cor 6, 9-11)
Note: "men who have sex with men" is the translation of two Greek words that refer to the active and the passive participants in homosexual sex.
Well, I think the message here is pretty clear. "Men who have sex with men" are qualified as people doing gravely wrong things (note how the "heavier" sins are mentioned in verse 9, as opposed to the a bit "lighter" of verse 10).They are put pretty much on the same level as idolaters.
Also, if any person who follows Christ ever was one of these wrongdoers, that person had to be justified in the name of Jesus Christ for their sins - the act of homosexuality is a mortal sin (assuming from the context that the washing/cleansing/justification was from the sin characteristic to the group of people.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
(Romans 1, 26-27)
The last sentence - "Men commited shameful acts with other men, and recieved in themselves the due penalty for their error" clearly states, that homosexual acts are, in fact, sinful. They are shameful by God (I will propably dig deeper into shame in NT in a future post, for now reference John 3, 19-21) and for comitting them, a penalty is due. This penalty is most propably the aforementioned evilness that comes from sin.
Once again, thank you for such a quick answer. I hope you find my questions interesting and/or demanding.
If I have made any mistake in the reasoning of any of my posts, please point them out here (cblf) or via email.
Everyone visiting this forum is included in my prayers.