Ooooh I think I'm going to enjoy this one... (how to tackle how to tackle it, hmm)

First off unless you want to change what we are talking about I'm going to assume your POV includes heterosexuals as well so the exact fantasies are not important to you. If that is not true let me know.

Lust in and of itself is not a bad thing, you say that further down that if you lust towards your wife during masturbation it is not wrong. You think lust within marriage is ok or lust in your head towards your wife is ok during masturbation so you admit that it CAN be ok under certain circumstances. So you start down the road that some things are sinful only under certain conditions, your conditions are apparently different than mine.

"Sex was made for the man to give the woman pleasure, and the woman to exchange equally to the man."
I will agree with you on this statement as some of my differing views on it are irrelevant to this particular argument and going off topic is not necessary.

So what happens before one gets married or if one never does?
In your point of view a man or woman should be completely asexual up until that point. He/She should have no sexual thoughts (lust) and not be sexual in any way even with himself. This requires incredible self discipline that very few human beings have and I don't think is reasonable. Partly because finding someone attractive (lusting after them even a little) is part of how people find mates. Be realistic about this it is true. God created us to be sexual beings whether or not we were married. Paul only advocates marriage if we are hindered spiritually by not being so because we have too much sexual desire, he gives no advice to those who stay single to deal with sexual tension.

If we are not to masturbate every now and then and do not or are not yet married then all we can do is let the testosterone build up and our state of horniness get higher and higher until we burst involuntarily. In that case it gets so hard to not be lustful (which you want to avoid at all costs, eh) and you become so without even trying eventually. Personally I have found it easier to control my thoughts when I do masturbate on a regular basis.

I am using conjecture mostly because I have yet to see you or anyone else provide a Bible passage which specifically addresses the situation and I know of none myself.

"Doing yourself is abusing the literal gift of sex."

I agree with the notion of abusing yourself as does Socrates, John Stuart Mill, and I believe Jesus does too (I am not saying he is the same as two human philosophers). I do not see how masturbation is self abuse though.

I'll use your analogy and call it a gift from God and make an analogy. Someone gives me a two player game as a gift for Christmas. I find a way to play it by myself and have fun when no one else can join me. Is that wrong? Or you have some task that usually requires two people, like lifting something heavy, and you find a way to do it by yourself. Is that wrong?

You also contradict yourself in this statement. You say that masturbation is ok if you are thinking about the person you are married to but then here you leave no room for that, unless it is implied.

"The reason God never really brought this up in particular, is think about it, around age 15 people where getting married, and they SHOULD not have been having this problem, and its plausable they weren't."

Actually it was around the age 13 for girls and older for males. It was institutionalized heterosexual pedophilia by today's definition as was customary in most of the world until fairly recently in the larger historical sense. That is why it is never condemned in the Bible. The other wrong thing about that statement is the implication that no one masturbates before the age of 15, which is so wrong. God had the writers list tons of things in the old and new testaments that he thought was wrong I see no reason why something that has been going on for so long (as opposed to computer related crimes and such) would not be in the Bible.

"Thinking that masturbation isn't a sin is someone either used to making up excuses, or someone in serious denial.

And I don't think its unfair to say that."

I think it is unfair to say that. Denial is the catch all phrase of the day for when you think someone is wrong and you are right. Unless you have reasons to say I am there is no reason to say it. I could say the same thing to others who disagree with some of my other theological beliefs like non violence and my belief God does not give us everything we want if we are faithful enough I hear from way too many preachers.

I need to go now so I will make more responses to your other worthy posts when I get back as well as get your response to this one then. I shall enjoy this little dialog. I do not have the goal to really convince you but to has out our own ideas. As a side note, if you believe that masturbation is hindering your spiritual growth then by all means get rid of it or gain control of it. Some things are sinful for all people (murder, rape, etc..) while some are really just bad spiritually for others.

Godspell