"As to the first statement that you would like me to defend biblically, that is not a statement that stems from the bible, that is a statement that stems from logic."
jsd this statment is of exactly the kind I'm concerned about. It's like you are uncertain what the Biblical requriement is so you turn to logic to guide you. In a later post you accused Chris of this: "Your definition of lust is something that you made up. If you apply your definition then maybe you are right, but I mean it fails the logic test."
If Chris is working from a made up definition of lust and so are you then we are having a discussion based on OUR OWN oppinions and not on SCRIPUTRE. You claim that your oppinion comes from logic, I want to see an oppinion that comes from Scripture.

Later you give us your definition of lust: "Lusting someone is desiring after them sexually..it does not address the extent of the desire."
Now I must strongly challenge you or anyone to defend this from Scripture. Even the Matthew 5:28 passage (even if taken in its most traditional interpretation) does not condemn the desire. It condemns the MANNER OF LOOKING that the desire motivates.
It is a VERY big deal if Scripture condemns us just for being sexual beings... for having sexual desire. Frankly, I think this is going too far and is reminiscent of more asthetic branches of Christian philosophy which see the pleasure desires of the flesh as fundamentally evil, rather than the gift of God to be enjoyed within the boundaires He sets us.

"Nowhere in there does it state that someone CANNOT control their urges, just that some DO NOT."
Actually it does. See verse 9 ("if they cannot control themselves, they should marry").
"The entire emphasis of this set of scripture is that IF you can't control yourself, get MARRIED, not MASTURBATE"
I completely agree with you on this.
My question is, what do we do, as boylovers, since getting married to a woman will NOT help us to exercise self-control?

"How can you say that all bl's cannot control themselves?"
I am NOT saying that at all.
I am asking... if we are having trouble exercising self-control, and marriage doesn't work for us, then what are we to do?... and "is masturbation a possible solution?"

"As to your third reference as to what the christian should do, I do not have to point out a bible reference here, because we are commanded not to sin, which Lust is, and by extension masturbation since masturbation always involves lust. So since masturbation without lust is pretty much impossible, the only other logical approach to avoid sin is to not masturbate if at all possible."
It seems to me that you say this based on a definition of lust that comes from your logic rather than from the Scriputres. Masturbation always involves sexual desire. But is all sexual desire lustful? I think this is where our definitions disagree. You seem to answer that all sexual desire IS lust. I answer that sexual desire is only lustful if it is focused on a particular person whom you actually covet to have sex with outside the context of a marriage.

I don't think the Mattew referance to the pharaisies is important to debate. It will just distract us from the issue. I do agree the passage doesn't address the legitimacy of the burdens. My point simply was that if our moralising of the Scriputes makes for standards that are impossible to live up to that perhaps the standard needs to be re-examined.

"You by masturbating and lusting are committing adultery plain and simple because you are lusting after someone that is not your wife"
If I am masturbaing or even having sex with my wife and imagining being with someone else (which is what I have to do in order to be able to keep an errection) then my marriage is in trouble (which it is). I am careful not to lust about particular someones (though not always successful and I agree that to do so is sin). I'm not sure what I can do. It is my aim to do all that I can to focus all my sexual attention on my wife.... which I don't beleive is possible for me... nevertheless I feel that it is for the best that I really try and do this. Regardless of my situation, I still feel that for a single person, imagining sex with a non specific person during masturbation is not Biblically sinful per se.

Blessings jsd,
I'm enjoying this discussion, its helping me really look at my position, having it challenged and I like that.
Cat.