Cat,

Thanks for your response. I would like to see a response to my original post as well. As to the first statement that you would like me to defend biblically, that is not a statement that stems from the bible, that is a statement that stems from logic. Most people masturbate because they are lusting after something in some form or fashion, like I brought up to you in the first post. Clearly, masturbation in and of itself, is technically not a sin. Lust however is. If you can seperate Lust from the masturbation then you can posibly masturbate without sinning, but as Chris says, who masturbates without thinking of something?

Secondly, Let's address 1 Corinthians 7 in light of what I said about controlling urges. Here is the Amplified version of verse 5:

"Do not refuse and deprive and defraud each other [of your due marital rights], except perhaps by mutual consent for a time, so that you may devote yourselves unhindered to prayer. But afterwards resume marital relations, lest Satan tempt you [to sin] through your lack of restraint of sexual desire.(A)"

Nowhere in there does it state that someone CANNOT control their urges, just that some DO NOT. In fact, Paul states a couple of verses down that He does have self-control. The entire emphasis of this set of scripture is that IF you can't control yourself, get MARRIED, not MASTURBATE. So at the most you could say that some people cannot control themselves so they should get married instead of staying single, which he says is ideal. Now, I will tell you that Paul is not Jesus, and in my personal view, what Paul has to say is of less importance particularly in the light of the fact that God created Woman FOR Man.

So, at the most from this passage I will acknowledge that some Don't control themselves, and some are aflame as he calls it, and it is better that those people marry. He states this is a concession. This does not mean that one should not attempt to control their lusts. Now to your original points, in order for this passage to support your argument, you would have to say that all bl's cannot control themselves, so they should masturbate....but this passage does not say that. The passage says, if you can't control your lusts, GET MARRIED. How can you say that all bl's cannot control themselves?

As to your third reference as to what the christian should do, I do not have to point out a bible reference here, because we are commanded not to sin, which Lust is, and by extension masturbation since masturbation always involves lust. So since masturbation without lust is pretty much impossible, the only other logical approach to avoid sin is to not masturbate if at all possible.

As to your Matthew 23:4 reference, that is also wrongly placed here. Here is that verse:

"They tie up heavy loads, hard to bear, and place them on men's shoulders, but they themselves will not lift a finger to help bear them." AMP

This is referring to hypocrisy, even more so in the previous verse, not the burdens themselves. This passage does not even address the legitimacy of the burdens, just the fact that the pharisees place the burdens on people but do not help the people bear those burdens. And, this is a problem, do not get me wrong. There are a lot of preachers out there with serious lust and porn issues at the same time as they are condemning their congregations for that same sin without a lot of understanding/sympathy. This verse also in my view does not imply, as you claim it does, that no one can live up to the burdens placed, just that the pharisees should help the people with the burdens.

Cat, in your case, your arguments, even if they are true do not hold water. You by masturbating and lusting are committing adultery plain and simple because you are lusting after someone that is not your wife. You can offer all of these tortured explanations all you want, but ultimately you have to live with that. It sounds like, even more so with your latest message that you are twisting scripture and making assumptions and implications just to make you feel better about it. Namely, "Since its impossible to do it anyway, it isnt really a sin". It is really important in my view to not step around sin issues, but acknowledge the sin, because ultimately you are just deluding yourself if you do otherwise.