Hey C-Matt!
Thanks for your thorough response. Much appreciated! And I do believe we have ironed out a few things already. Always, I will try and answer the remainder of your questions to the best of my ability. Oh, and sorry if I repeat myself a couple of times – if I wanna make sure I get a point across and am not sure how I said it previously or if I said it at all, I always think it better to repeat than leave out.

please dont just make blanket statements

Ok. I agree. No one likes blanked statements. I’ll admit that I am partially lazy, partially in the middle of writing a college paper while writing this :P and, well, never really was a “bible thumper” (not used in a derogatory way). Sooo, I’ll have to put in some solid effort in hurting down some evidence for ya. I’ll see what I can do.

And since I have quite clearly shown where the Bible says that [being a BL] IS a sin I do NOT think you are "good to go". ANY refrence you can give me would be greatly appreciated

Ok, I’ll recap what you’ve quoted and look through it, then we can see if your interpretations differ. Don’t mind if I paraphrase – what I state is pretty much my interpretation. … Now ensues the regrettable battle of the translations …

1) Romans 6:6-7 ~ Because of Jesus’ death we are freed from sin
2) Mark 12:16-17 ~ We must follow both Gods law and the law of the land in their proper place
3) Jude 7 ~ Two cities were destroyed because their inhabitants refused to stop fornicating and “going after strange flesh”
4) Romans 1:23-26 ~ God was angry because some people started 1) worshiping things other than God, 2) lusting, 3) “dishonor[ing] their own bodies between themselves – having sex with each other in inappropriate ways (i.e.: two men)
5) Matthew 10:34-39 ~ The only way to be saved is by believing in Jesus – anything else you try and hold on to will only let you down or even possibly lead you away from salvation (depending if you believe in that thing more than you do in Jesus)

Ok, so here is EVERY quote that you pasted in our discussion, in order of occurrence. I know some aren’t directly related to the following, but I thought I should share my interpretations anyways.

For the life of me, I cannot see how any of these 5 quotes say that being a BL is a sin. Quick recap: being a BL is and orientation or preference – it does not include feelings (lust, jealousy, etc) or actions (staring, touching, etc), and it doesn’t mean the same things as boy lovers (who transform boy love into individual thoughts and actions, both of which may or may not be sinful). Being a boy lover doesn’t automatically make you a sinful person, as what makes you that (boy love) is not a sin. It is one’s application (so to speak) of boy love within their own life that makes them a good or bad boy lover

I believe the basis of your “BL is a sin” statement rests on quotes 3 and 4 (if it isn’t please correct me, oh, and then most of the following will likely be useless …). In my interpretation, those cities were destroyed because of the actions of the people. It doesn’t give the example of someone there who was simply gay in orientation without acting on it, so we can’t assume anything from that. Even “going after strange flesh” doesn’t relate to an orientation. Literally, I see that statement meaning going and having sex with other men. It could be interpreted as lusting after and inappropriately fixating yourself of men, which I could understand, but even that doesn’t relate to orientation (above definition excludes both possibilities).

For quote 4 I can see some things that ARE shown as sins there being related to boy lovers (though please note, not boy love but boy lovers). Point 1 shows that if we worship boys over God or our love of boys gets in the way of our love of God, then that is a sin. Point 2 shows that fixating on thoughts or having inappropriate thoughts is a sin. Point 3 shows that having sex outside of the parameters that God has created (must be within marriage, and arguably between a man and woman, but for now we’ll even assume that as given) is a sin. But please note that our orientation doesn’t make us do any of this. It is very possible for a boy lover to live as free from these sins as any heterosexual. It may be a lot harder. So we have a tougher road to go on and we as individuals have a greater risk of falling into sin. But this is not because of our orientation. If we sin, it is because we (consciously or unconsciously) chose to do so. What we do with our orientation determines what kind of person (sinful or pure) we are.

So … does that explain things? Even if you don’t agree, does this show you why I think that boy love is not a sin and has to potential to be just as sin free (or lack there of) as heterosexuality (heteros can still break rules 1 and 2 in quote 4, and depending on interpretation, adultery could be seen as the forbidden actions in quote 3 and 4). Even if you don’t agree, does this explanation of your quotes and the revelation of my interpretation let you understand where I am coming from? (haha, and you can’t just say I’m picking and choosing here cause I’m using your quotes :P my interpretation may be different than yours, but interpretations are very hard to prove one way or another … plus I think I have a VERY compelling argument).

Oh, and I don’t enjoy arguing interpretations because a lot of the time people spend so much time and effort arguing the technicalities of the answer that the question is simply forgotten.

So ya, no new quotes or references on my part (see down 3ish paragraphs for reason), but I’ve argued yours to the point that they are not true. Thus, while I haven’t proven that boy love is accepted, Via Negativa (which, due to the resources, is all I can do … the same pickle St. Thomas Aquainas found himself in) I have proven that boy love is not not accepted. This should answer your statement to ANY refrence you can give me would be greatly appreciated (sorry, I can’t give a reference … once again, see a few paragraphs below)

And to answer a question a little further down ( How can a forum claiming to be Christain not have scripture at all? ), as you will see we believe in scripture and all, but none directly addresses pedophiles specifically, or the matter of boy love (remember, separated from thoughts and actions). Kinda makes it hard. Oh, and I’m pretty sure we can be Christian without “having” scripture. As long as we believe in Jesus, we’re good. And we do believe in scripture, even though we may not “have” it.

Hope this helps a bit.

See this is where I would LOVE to see some kind of scripture to back this up...don't just point to the New Testement and say..."here". I have given several scriptures that tells us exactly how this is not so. Yes Jesus loves us all, he died for us all, but part of that is confessing our sins to him. But you obviouly do NOT think it is a sin. But the Bible tells us in many different parts that it is. This is my main concern.

Well, I hope the above explanation of my interpretation helped – thus showing that the bible does NOT tell us in many different parts that boy love is a sin. Maybe some actions and thoughts, but even I agree that those are wrong, and am trying to rid myself from them. As far as proof about Jesus’ love … well, common – you gotta admit that love is the main (not only, but central) call of his teachings and ministry.

As far as my belief that “Jesus allows us to be orientated this way” , well I guess it doesn’t have direct scriptural proof. Actually, I can’t recall either orientation or pedophilia being directly brought up in the bible. Yes, acts of homosexuality was dealt with by brutal decapitation. Haha, yes – it is commonly interpreted that acts of homosexuality are against what the bible says. I won’t bother debating this with you. But (see above), those are just acts that are mentioned.

Thus, all that is left is a person who is prone to sinning. Kind of like the teaching of the church (Catholics at least) regarding homosexuality: being a homosexual is NOT a sin, only homosexual acts are. I think that directly applies to other orientations. You are accepted for who you are, but as such you are responsible for your actions and living our your life in a way pleasing to God. That doesn’t mean not loving boys. But it does mean putting God first, not lusting after them, not being sexual with them, not leading them away from God, etc. What do you think?

I think Jesus would not accept a love that in perverted

I might have missed something, but I did not get the feeling that our love is perverted from anything the bible said. Actually, instead of looking up passages, I did some research regarding “love”. Turns out love cannot really be bad. By definition, as soon as love creates negative outcomes it is no longer love, but rather obsessions, jealousy, desire, drive, want, lust, dominance, etc. Love, just like boy love, is not an action or even a thought. It is an emotion that is directed though a specific orientation. See … here I’m concentrating on the technical aspects of love. Not what I would call as constructive, but since you want some hard proof, definitions and examples are all I have for you. If you have a bible passage regarding negative aspects of love (or even defining the positive aspects of love), I would like to hear it. The only time I could find love used in what was close to a definition was in the “when a man loves his wife and the two become one…” thingy. But love specifically wasn’t addressed, but rather shown that that was a situation in which love is present.

But I have shown you quite clearly where it IS against God's law. Stated many times. I have shown you exactly where to look in the Bible.

Well, indeed I disagree with the many times that you mentioned that it is against the God’s law. So I guess we are back to my original statement “as I said, I can not find anything in either that says that my ORIENTATION (that is, being a BL) is against the law”

on the whole homosexualty has been identified very clear by God

Sure has. Well, homosexual actions that is. Others will argue with you, but why bother. The point I’m making is clear, and supported by the Catholic church and almost all other divisions of Christianity – the thoughts and actions may be wrong, but your orientation does not matter – we are all children of God. Now, if you belong to a very conservative (more conservative that Catholics?! Sheesh! Lol) then that may be different for you, but than in this case we must simply agree to disagree.

Again, I will disagree here. Jesus loved ALL. He still loves all. But you are making a concrete choice that you love one thing over another. You LOVE boys. Not children as a whole...but boys in particualr. Not saying you hate girls. But by your own admission you feel orientated towards boys. The love Jesus showed in "Matthew, Mark, Luke and John" (as you like to generalise) is for all of mankind. That is pure love. That is the love we are to mirror. Any stray from this is a perversion due to the sin in our lives.

You are very right that I generalized the love that Jesus was preaching in the gospels to apply more specifically. Indeed that love and our love towards boys is different because it IS specific. So I was wrong and you were right to correct me. But if you want to use that same argument not just against me, but against boy love, it won’t work. Last I checked, heterosexuals did the same thing. They love all people (just as all people should, including boy lovers), but they have a specific preference or orientation towards women (just like for us it is towards boys). Thus, since all humanity has strayed from this, from what you say, everyone’s love is perverse? Naw … I think it is just a different type of love (you know, just like you likely don’t love your grandma the same way you do your wife). And what about the way that God wanted us to love our wives?? Sexually! From what I understood, that was a very sacred covenant and sacrament – I doubt it is a perversion. Its just different. Same thing for us, minus the sexual aspect.

Actaully [Jesus’ ministry] is not [completely about acceptance and love]

You are right. My bad – slip of the keyboard. I meant to say that it was mostly about love. And acceptance in a certain respect. Not acceptance of sins, but acceptance of social deviants who were thought to be less of people because of how society viewed them. Jesus saw past that and, when they gave up their sins (if any … aka the leaper), accepted them fully. Same thing for us. If we give up our sinful ways (which I showed that according to my interpretation is not being a BL but the actions that we do as a BL), God will not only love us, but accept us too.

Correct. He saw that her attractiobn to men was perverted. And to continue in the Light of Jesus and to Love as he does. To live as God laid out many years before in his plan.

You said this in response to my bit on Mary Magdalene. I want to bring it up again because I don’t think you really understood what I was trying to say (according to the rest of your post). And I wouldn’t say that “her attraction to men was perverted” . I doubt it. I think it is more that what she did with her attraction was perverted. Her action was a sin, her desires were sins, her lusts were sins, her (assumed) desire for money which led her into this cycle of prostitution was a sin. But her attraction to men was not. She was attracted to men. Period. That is ok. But past that she screwed up.

Thus, like I said, Jesus didn’t say to the prostitute (Mary Magdalene) “don’t be attracted to men anymore”, but rather something along the lines of “change your ways and follow the truth” . Indeed God had a plan for her that she perverted. But it wasn’t because of her orientation towards men. It may have been her desire for men, or many other things. But not her orientation – so basic that all it does is point the rest of you in one direction. What you do once you’re in that direction is what makes you good or bad. We have male rapists who rape men or women, female rapists who rape men or women, and child molesters that rape boys or girls. What they did was they took their orientation and acted upon it in the wrong ways.

He did NOT "accept" that Mary Magdalene was a prostitue. He showed her wrongfullness of her ways and she repented.

Yes. We agree on this basic point. But you say that we must repent our orientation. I say we must repent our actions, like Mary Magdalene did. She didn’t repent her attraction towards men and become gay (well, maybe, but who knows) because God told her to do that. But she did repent her actions and move away from prostitution to a life devoid of such sinful actions and thoughts. Exactly as we are called to do.

You have a forum whee people can come and be accepted doing something sinful. They talk to others and come to a false realization that what they think is ok. And since Jesus ok's loving boys the leap is not far for some weaker people. You seem to have a good handle on your urges. but what about others? See that is why Alcoholics Anonymous does not condone you being around alcohol at all.

This forum serves as a meeting ground for support. To use your analogy of AA, this place is like the meetings. Granted it isn’t presided over by someone who has been “cured”, but it is occupied by people who have curbed their attraction in a healthy way and are willing to be there to help others. “What about the others” – the ones who still have problems? Well, as you already know, this board is strictly against illegal actions. Thus we are here for support in helping other curb their attractions as well. And I don’t believe that this board is like Alcohol to alcoholics. I believe a better analogy would be boys being our version of alcohol. And indeed for some people it is recommended that they do stay away from children. But no, instead of being a temptation I strongly believe that this board is a safe place for support and help (recall how we were strongly against what John A Doe was doing).

Wow, that was definitely definitely LONG! Just over 3000 words. That’s how long the paper that I’m supposed to be writing is supposed to be. Hmmm … think I could submit this? :P Anyways, thanks for the reply. Hopefully this is yet another step in understand on both of our sides. Hope to hear from you soon!

Graces of God,
Deliverance